Tag Archives: Purple

oranda, Purple goldfish, The Diary of a Goldfish Breeder 2021

The Diary of a Goldfish Breeder 2021 (23)

Update result on Purple Oranda Project.

There was a big gamble in this project. I mated my previous line of purple oranda with my basic material. That’s it. Other plans did not work. So, if this single effort failed, I would lost my purple oranda line. Well, I did not worry so much about it since I could still revive the line using my blue and brown crossing all over again.

I waited the offspring of this semi oranda to mature. They grew very fast and big, a good sign of gene vitality. One of them is, you guess it, Helen! When the time came, I mated Helen with her own sibling. The setbacks come in the form of color instability. Most of them turn white. So frustrating!

I collected only four offspring with stable purple color. Two of them had slight defect which I did not want to use as the next parent, so a new friend from India adopted them. Now I am left with two purple oranda. For my purpose, it is enough.

Here they are:

The top fish is male, the bottom one is female. Obviously the male is far more beautiful than the female in terms of the body shape, dorsal, and tail. A friend asks if I infuse ryukin genetics to him. No. In fact, I do not have any ryukin project. I do not even have any ryukin for a long time. Then, how come I get that round body with hump? I do not know. None of his parents nor grandparents have that shape. I think that is the beauty of breeding. Sometimes we get surprises along the way.

Anyway, I am satisfied with the current result. Doesn’t mean that there is no more to improve. On the other hand, there are lots of them! First, comparing the two siblings, I know that there is no uniformity. That alone is something to work for. Second, the headgrowth is uniformly lacking. Third, concerning the body shape, of course the male is better. But I would like a slightly longer body. About the tail, well, If I can maintain the tail quality of the male fish, it will be superb. Perfect tail, in my opinion. The dorsal fin is an issue. Yes, the male has an outstandingly high dorsal fin. It is nice to see. Yet, it looks fragile. I will be satisfied with lower but strong dorsal fin.

Before I forget, let me repost my previous line of purple oranda. Don’t you think I have made lots of improvement?

For friends who are still confused about the difference between purple color and blue color, I take this picture:

The fish in front is the purple, or also called lavender. The one in the back is the blue, or also called platinum.

These last weeks I have started to move on with this projects:

  1. I mated the male purple oranda with my brown oranda (which I will update shortly). The purpose is to prevent the purple genetics from being saturated. That is why I do not plan to inbreed these siblings (purple with purple).
  2. I mated the male purple oranda with Helen. Yes, I do a backcrossing to his mother. And I will be very cautious to plan my next move. My purpose is to get stable purple color in the shape of Helen
  3. In my previous post (#22) I mentioned a white oranda (blue oranda that lost its melanin) with a desirable body shape. I mated him with Helen. Since the mating is between a genetically blue fish and a semi purple fish, the offspring results in a certain percentage of purple color.

Those three moves have been done. In the coming months I will have three lines of purple oranda which will give me more freedom to do the next crossing or to choose which line is the best. My only worry is the stability of the purple color.

Well, let’s see. I will update the results perhaps in the next five or six months.

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The Diary of a Goldfish Breeder 2021

The Diary of a Goldfish Breeder 2021 (17)

One feature that I want to include in my line of Oranda is the Goosehead type of headgrowth. In the book “Goldfish Appreciation” (By Steven Tong & Hermanto), we mention the principle of Main Identity. And the main identity of an Oranda is its headgrowth. Many breeders may not be aware of this principle such that when they try to improve their lines of Oranda (mostly by cross breed), they forsake the headgrowth. Well, one example of such a breeder is myself. Helen, as my main female Oranda this season, is a result of such attempt. In the effort to produce better body form and tail shape, the headgrowth becomes smaller in size.

Not a bad fish, right?

But the headgrowth is not the highlight of the fish. When we see Helen from sideview:

the first thing that catches our attention might be the stout body, or the beautiful tail, but not the headgrowth. In the principle of Main Identity, Steven and I insist that first impression we get from an Oranda should be the beauty of its headgrowth. Helen does not have this highlight.

Let us compare Helen with this Oranda:

This fish is also mine. At the first glance, people will almost always notice its headgrowth. So, the fish satisfies the requirement of the Main Identity Principle. Too bad, the body and tail are not as good as those of Helen. (This fish is not with me anymore by the time I write this blog)

I must mention that the book also talks about the principle of Overall Beauty. By this we mean that after the Main Identity get the right attention, the body and tail should also be good to make overall fish beautiful. Some breeder fall into the other spectrum of the trap by putting all the effort to make eye-catching headgrowth but by neglecting the body form and tail shape. This will not do.

So, my aim is to create a balance between the principle of Main Identity and Overall Beauty. I want to improve the headgrowth of Helen’s offspring. How? By crossing Helen with other Oranda that has good headgrowth. Luckily, I have two males for this purpose.

But before that, let me explain why I choose the goosehead type when obviously there are many other headgrowth type equally beautiful. First, it is purely personal preference. I just fall in love with the goosehead type. Second, I want to differentiate my line from the existing ones in the market.

Now, these are the two goosehead I have.
First male:

Second male:

These two males are the halfway result to improve the goosehead tricolor Oranda body and tail forms. Forgive my bad memory, I think they are the cross between the tricolor Oranda with my purple Oranda. That is why their body and tail are not very weak, though not as beautiful as those of Helen. Unfortunately, I have no compatible female for them. I end up with only these two males. That is why my best choice is to cross them with Helen.

The offspring has been three days old. A small portion of them is light in color, which means they are either purple or brown Oranda. The rest are dark color, which can become wild color or red like Helen. If some becomes tricolor, it will be a big bonus for me. But I do not know about this.

Well, wish me the best 😊

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Blue Oranda, Purple goldfish, The Diary of a Goldfish Breeder 2021

The Diary of a Goldfish Breeder 2021 (12)

It seems that my writing activity is not as active as my breeding activity. There has been a lot of progress in my breeding projects that I have not updated here. Let me try to catch it up.

In this occasion, I would like to update my Oranda breeding project since it is my main priority this year. To continue the Diary number 7 about the cross between Purple Oranda and my Basic Oranda Material in order to improve the quality of my purple oranda, I have selected a pair of offspring (semi purple Oranda) as the main parent fish. They are mature right now and have been bred several times. These are their pictures (before and after):

  • Before
  • After

The fish above has grown big and becomes difficult to handle during hand-spawning. The body is strongly built. The tail wrinkles beautifully displaying the rose-tail style. The headgrowth has grown a little bit, but not impressive enough. This is the part that need to be improved still. Anyway, at this stage, I am satisfied with the quality so far. This female is productive. She is the main star during this year. I use her in several different projects. Let’s call her Helen the Oranda.

  • Before
After

This male is from the same batch as the female one. Strangely his red and black pigments grow. At first, I thought he was in a stressful condition. But that was not the case. I mated this male with the main female to produce improved Purple Oranda. But complication arose. Most of the purple oranda produced lost their purple color and turned into white fish. I must discard them. Right now I am left with only two purple offspring which seem to retain their color. Right now the offspring is seven centimeters in size. I will post them later when they are bigger. So, with only two purple offspring left, I cannot say that this project is succesful. I plan to redo this mating once again to see if I can get more purple ones.

From my crossing of the Basic Oranda Material with my blue oranda of the same age as above fishes, I am blessed with one male semi blue oranda. Its phenotype is red, of course. I mentioned this project in my previous posts but had never posted any picture. So, I do not have the “before” picture. This is the recent picture of him:

The body is stout. The tail has some wrinkle genetics but it is not quite the same as the Helen the Oranda (the semi purple one). The headgrowth is slightly better than the result of the semi purple project. I mention this male because he is significant in producing my improved blue oranda. I mated this male with Helen which successfully resulted in improved version of my blue oranda. A small percentage of the offspring loses its blue pigmen but the majority are good. So, excitingly, the cross between the semi blue oranda and the semi purple oranda results in good blue oranda offspring. They are still young right now, roughly seven centimeters in size. I will update them later when they are bigger.

Concerning my brown oranda project, I mentioned my failure before. But this week, I have successfully crossed my previous version of brown oranda with Helen. I have lots of confidence of being successful, but it is too early now to claim that. I will update the result in the next several months.

One more thing. I have another female semi purple Oranda besides Helen. The color was grey, and now she turns totally black. I did not include her in my post number 7 at that time since I was not aware of her presence. I thought all have been mutated into red or red-white fishes. Only when I did the total water change I realize that there was one grey fish left. I was planning to cull her out, but right now she ends up as the only back up female from the semi purple project. Considering her strong black pigment, she might be a better candidate to produce purple color than Helen. Yet, she has slender body and weaker tail than Helen. I do not take her picture. I just think I need to mention her in case I use her in my project one day.

So, to conclude, the successful one at this point is the improved blue oranda project. The purple and brown ones still need to be repeated again. And another interesting side project involving Helen comes to mind which I will report in the next post. Please wait 😊

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The Diary of a Goldfish Breeder 2021

The Diary of a Goldfish Breeder 2021 (11)

I have refined my breeding strategy.

First, let me update the projects I have started at the beginning of this year: the blue, brown, purple, and yellow oranda. I have crossed my original fishes with the better quality oranda which I labeled as my Basic Material (orange in color). The purpose of the project is to improve the quality of my blue, brown, purple, and yellow oranda.

I have crossed each type of color with the Basic Material. Unfortunately, not all went as planned. The successful one is the purple oranda project. The crossing produced male and female semi purple oranda (right now they are in orange and red white color). I have mated these F1 x F1 on this June and have kept the purple fry only. So far so good. It is a different story with the blue cross.

The cross between blue and basic material yields good quality semi blue offspring. Sadly, they are all male. I cannot continue the project with this condition. (I still keep one female blue oranda from my original line as a back up, though.)

The brown and basic material cross failed miserably. Due to the overload in my capacity, I could not take care the offspring well. I must let them go. (I still have brown oranda from two other lines which I can use as back up.)

The yellow project produced so many single tail, which I must cull out. So, this project also failed. (Of course, I still keep some yellow for back up plan.)

Besides these crossing, I also paired my Basic Material with each other because I might use them later on. This line is important for me. I must manage them well.

Second, I just realize that I do not have to make four separate projects as mentioned above, actually. The blue, brown, and purple are somewhat related. This fact can simplify my breeding strategy a lot. Let me explain.

To review a bit, this chart explains the basic:

The blue and brown are not related. When they are crossed, the F1 is grey in color, which sometimes turn into orange fish. But when the grey is paired with each other (F1 x F1), the result will be blue, brown, purple, and grey. I always cull out the grey. This is how I get my purple goldfish.

So, although the blue and brown are not related, the blue is somewhat related to the purple. The brown is also related to the purple. Here we see that the key is the purple goldfish. When we crossed the blue and purple, the result will be blue and purple right on the F1. The same case happen in the cross between brown and purple. We will immediately get brown and purple.

So, what I need to cross with the basic material is actually only the purple. When I get the desired result (the purple with higher quality), I can cross the purple with the blue and the brown. Instead of mating each color with the basic material (three projects), it is sufficient for me to cross the purple only. This simplify my projects a lot, doesn’t it? This is the refinement of my breeding strategy.

The yellow oranda is a different case. This color has no relation at all with the blue, brown, or purple. So, this project must stand on its own. I must cross the yellow with the basic material.

Thank you for reading 😊

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The Diary of a Goldfish Breeder 2021

The Diary of a Goldfish Breeder 2021 (7)

This is the update of my Purple Oranda Project. The aim of the project is to improve the quality of my Purple Oranda. The quality of my previous Purple Oranda was skinny fish with minimal headgrowth and ordinary tail. On January this year, I started to cross it with a bulkier Red (Orange) Oranda that has a better headgrowth and the so called rose-tail, which I called my Basic Material. Since the Purple Color is recessive to the Red color, the offspring are either red (orange) or red-white (orange-white) in their phenotype. The F1 show improved body, headgrowth, and tail quality. But the quality is not uniform as will be seen in the pictures below. The Basic Material quality has not been achieved at this stage.

The current results are fast growing. I moved them outdoor last week to see if they were ready to mate. I am a bit worried that I cannot see any visible female when I inspect them. I can see some males with white particles on the pectoral fins. But I do not see any protruding anal in the rest of the fish without the white particles. I do not know if they are immature males, or females, or infertile fish.

The current state does not produce Purple Color yet. My main strategy to produce an improved Purple color is to mate F1 x F1. Yet, the worry I mention above might be a hindrance. For the back up strategy, I still keep a productive female from my previous Purple Oranda. I can mate her with the F1. But this move might decrease the quality I have seen in the F1. Well, at least I still have the back up plan intact. In the next six months or less I might be able to update the results.

This is the productive female from the previous breed. Notice that the body tends to be slim, the headgrowth is minimal, and the tail shape is ordinary. It is considered a poor quality Oranda. But the color is beautiful.

And these are the F1. Notice that the bodies are bulkier, and the headgrowth are better thought still small. The tail show some wrinkles in some of them, as the characteristic of the rose tail (or semi rose-tail). One of them (number 4) shows a large hump as in Ryukin. I think this is an outlier and I will not use it if I do not have to.

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Brown Panda Ranchu, Chocolate Ranchu, Panda Ranchu, Purple goldfish

Brown Panda Ranchu

As a side result of the Purple Ranchu Project, I also get the Brown Panda Ranchu. Actually, it is the Purple Ranchu who demelanizes to produce a purple and white fish. The purple gets darker to produce the appearance of brown / light brown. This process is exactly the same as the demelanization process in the blue ranchu to become panda ranchu (Black and White Ranchu).

As this variety is still rare, I think it is better to document it here for future reference. Here are some pictures:

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Purple goldfish

Final Chapter on Purple Ranchu Project

I think I have come to the final stage of my project on purple goldfish. Starting with the report by Shisan C. Chen as my inspiration, I am finally able to create the purple ranchu. I called the color purple, since I heard that term being used when I was young and naive in goldfish breeding. Shisan C. Chen did not use that term. He just said that it is an intermediate color between brown and blue. I remembered my heart yearned for a more definite description or picture, “what sort of color is that? I would like so much to see it!”

In doing this project, I learned that there are two kinds of brown color in goldfish, and they are genetically different. I am sorry I cannot speak in a more scientific term since my training in genetics is very limited. But I know from my observation that when the two different brown are mated with blue, the result is totally different. I will not elaborate more on this since I have written about it several times on this blog.

So, this is the result:

Left side view:

Yes, it has brown stain, to make it a purple and brown ranchu. Some friends prefer to use the koi terminology to address this breed and call it ochiba ranchu. Yes, the head and perhaps the body could still be improved. I have focused much on the color and sort of neglecting the body conformation. But, for the color experiment, this is final.

Right side view:

Less brown stain on the right side views to make it a decent purple. I know for most people who are not familiar with this project, it is hard to differentiate this purple color with blue. So, let me give some comparison picture.

Comparison between purple and blue:

Yes, the purple has a reddish color compared to the blue.

Comparison between purple, blue and brown:

Hopefully, this project will be useful for the coming generation of goldfish breeders and hobbyist. Thank you for all the motivational support for this project. It is finished now 🙂

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Purple goldfish

Updates on purple goldfish (Dec 11th, 2015)

As an overview, I was repeating the classic experiment by Shishan C. Chen. The experiment was crossing a blue metallic scale goldfish with a chocolate metallic scale goldfish. My slight modification was that I use the panda metallic scale goldfish instead of blue, noting that panda and blue color has a close relationship. I crossed a panda tosa with a chocolate pompom. I got the panda tosa from crossing panda telescope eyes (which is available in the market) with blue oranda.

The F1 was wild in color. Some turned into wild and orange, and some turned into totally orange color. No blue, no panda, no chocolate appeared at this stage. All have small pompom balls. Interestingly, their size became giants! I took my lesson that crossing far related types of goldfish may trigger the production of large sizes. (This inspires the possibility of doing projects on giant sized goldfish!)

This is the picture of the F1. Picture was taken 5 months ago, and the fishes have grown larger since. The bowl is 40cm in diameter.

20150811_061647

Then I did F1 x F1. The results were amazing! I got:

1st category: blue, blue-white combination (or we call it panda) and white (as the blue color totally disappeared)

2nd category: chocolate, chocolate-orange combination, and orange

3rd category: purple (the color in between blue and chocolate), chocolate-white combination (!), and white (as the chocolate color totally disappeared)

4th category: wild color

The shape were all pompom goldfishes. Some with large pompom balls, some with small ones.

I got rid of the wild color early. (And now I regret it, since I would like to know whether it can be used to create red-white pompom combination or not). So, I focused on in-breeding those 3 categories. My utmost desire was to breed and stabilizes the chocolate-white combination, since it is a rarer color compared to the panda. Unfortunately, they do not lay eggs till now even when all the other categories have spawned. My project of creating chocolate-white is in jeopardy! It is not funny to start all over again from the beginning.

The first pair to spawn was the panda. I am happy, since panda pompom is nowhere to be seen nowadays. I was thinking that these panda will produce 100 percent genuine panda color. That is what happen when I crossed panda color with red-white. When I crossed panda with red-white, the F1 was red-white/red. The F2 yield roughly 25 percent of panda. And when I crossed these panda with its panda sibling, the result was 100 percent panda / blue. So, I was hoping the same to happen in this project. Interestingly, the result is different!

Panda color produced from the cross between panda and chocolate, when mated with its panda sibling, does not only yield panda / blue color, but also purple / chocolate-white color in small percentage! I think this is an important matter. It needs someone knowledgeable in genetics to explain this. I do not have that expertise.

These are the chocolate-white goldfish aged roughly three months old. Some have turned totally white. These are the ones that still retain the chocolate color. Aren’t they lovely?

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First, I am glad that I do not need to rely on my 3rd category that do not spawn till now. I can still get chocolate-white combination from the panda pair.

Second, let me make clear of the relationship between purple and chocolate-white. For the start, it is better to understand that there are three color involved here: blue, chocolate and purple. Shishan Chen has discussed the difference between them. It involves the black pigmen, the red pigmen, their combination and distribution. Though I do really want to understand more about it and what involves that create the difference between blue and black, chocolate and red, they are not really my stuffs. (I am too stupid for that.) It is enough for me to know that purple is a color between blue and chocolate.

It is also important to understand that there are “base” color in goldfish. I have never read about this. This is my own terminology, that will need help from friends who understand more. This “base” color is what makes the difference betwen black and blue, and between chocolate pompom and purple. Let me explain. In the case of black and blue, we know that differences happen in the melanin pigment. Black ranchu has melanin pigment, so also blue ranchu. But somehow, that same pigment behaves differently in those two. One factor is the different pigment distribution. Is it the only factor involved? I do not think so. But I cannot say anymore about this. There is a second important differentiation between the black and blue, and I want to draw the attention to this. Their “base” color is different. In black ranchu, if the black color fades, we will see an orange color. That is what I mean by base color. Even in Thai black ranchu where the black color does not fade, if we try to scratch the black skin, we will see the orange color underneath the black coat. But in blue color, if the black (or blue) pigment fades, what we will see is white color. So, this is the base color of blue fish. In black ranchu, as the melanin fades, we will have black-gold color (or black-orange), while in blue ranchu, as the melanin fades, we will have black-white color (or panda). So, the base color is different.

The relationship between chocolate pompom and purple pompom has something to do with this “base” color. The base color of chocolate pompom is orange. That’s why, when the chocolate color fades, we will see the orange as the base color. The fish can turn into chocolate-orange,or totally orange fish. We witness the same behavior with black and black-gold fish. In purple goldfish, the base is not orange, but white! So, when the purplish color fades, the fish will have purple-white color combination. And in this kind of combination, the purple color will be more intense, the pigmen distribution will be thicker, and the purple will look like chocolate. That is why I call the purple-white color combination as the chocolate-white. It is the same case with panda, where the blue-white combination is called black-white since the blue is getting thicker and looking like black.

This answers my second point, that is about the relationship between purple and chocolate-white. When the purple color does not fade, the fish will stay purplish. When the purple fades, the fish will become chocolate-white, and some will even turn into totally white.

Third, there seems to be several spectrum of chocolate color in the chocolate-white combination. I am still not sure about this. I am not sure of whether they are worthy to be identified separately.

Fourth, the good news is, when I crossed chocolate pompom with chocolate pompom resulted from this project, the result is not 100 percent chocolate, either! There are purple color also! The same behavior I examined from crossing panda with panda from this project.

Fifth, I have not had chance to cross purple with purple, or purple-white with purple-white. If I do this, will the result yield several panda and chocolate also, or will they be 100 percent purple and purple-white?

Sixth, it will be nice to create purple-white ranchu! A project that is enough to occupy my time for several years ahead!

 

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Purple goldfish

The difference between blue and purple

One of my concern is that the purple color is hard to differentiate from the blue color. My aim of posting these pictures is to show that those two colors are indeed differentiable. When being put side by side with chocolate / brown, the purple will look like blue. But when being put side by side with blue, the purple look like brown. So, purple is indeed a color spectrum between the blue and the brown, and differentiable from the two. The pictures below show the difference between blue and purple. I hope it is clear which one is which 🙂 Have a good day.

purple and blue 2

purple and blue 1

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Purple goldfish

Update on purple goldfish, September 16th, 2015

Telescope eyes occur in my breed once and a while, though I have never intended to breed them. These three telescope eyes are from one batch, from the same parent, yet they differ widely in their color. The left one is a panda. The middle one is the purple goldfish – I think it is still rare, and perhaps the only one in Indonesia currently. Hopefully this pose highlights the purple color from the rest. The right one is the chocolate with some beautiful stain of orange, also a rarity, I think. Enjoy,

colorful telescopes

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