Project #9,10,11: Blue, Brown, and Purple Ranchu Update
The fish I mentioned in the diary #6 show promising results. The cross produces four colors at once: grey, brown, purple and blue. I do not post the grey here. I will focus on the brown, purple, and blue. These are the champions after the final cull.
I am satisfied with these two brown ranchu, especially the first one. She shows beautiful smooth and thick curve. She can grow into a large and beautiful fish. Yes, she has weak headgrowth, and the size of the head is a bit small compared to the body. I plan to improve it by crossing with red-white ranchu that has better characteristic on this area. I think I will have beautiful offspring from this crossing next year.
The second fish is also female. So I do not have a male brown ranchu right now. The second fish is cute. She has a better headgrowth with more proportional head and body ratio. Well, actually I do not mind which one will be the next mother for my brown ranchu project. Both are adorable in their own ways.
Well, this is the only purple that can survive the cull. And the quality is far below expectation. The head is totally bald. The peduncle is long and slim / thin. Those are two characteristics I would like to avoid. But he is the only one I have. So, my future purple ranchu lineage might depend on him. The color is attractive, though.
The pictures were taken under afternoon sunlight. So the blue color looks a bit like purple due to the excessive sunlight. The first fish is female. I am not sure about the second one. The headgrowth is unique. The first has a little headgrowth, while the second one is bald. The curve of the first one is almost flat in the upper back, and sharply curves down before the tail. The second one has highest point of the back curve a bit to the front, which then slopes down not in a sharp manner. The color of the second fish is rich in gold combination.
I will certainly consider these blue to be my next parent fish. But I also have with me a different line of blue ranchu with a totally different character. I will compare them to decide what to do when they are ready to breed.
As a conclusion, I think my prize in this project is the brown ranchu.
I would like to report the result of Cow Ranchu (male) x Black Ranchu (female). These are the parents:
The offspring consists of two types: the grey / wild color, and the transparent color. I cull the grey out early. So, I do not know whether they will turn into some other color or will continue to be grey. I keep the transparent color only.
I also cull out the defects in finages from the transparent color. I end up with 7 of them. Let me first show them from top view.
1. The black pattern is a combination between type 1, 2, and 3 mentioned in my previous writing (diary #10). The blocks, dots, and irregular pattern appear here. I cannot say this is desirable. But it is not a bad thing, either.
2. The black pigment exist throughout all the offspring. Unlike my offspring of cow x cow which yields lots of casper fish (totally white), the existence of black color in this cross is a good thing. I can say that the black pigment of the black ranchu contribute to the abundance of black color here.
3. The red color is dominant and is not a good thing in a cow project. I will say that this red color is due to the black ranchu genetics, also because underneath the black coat of a black ranchu is actually a red / orange color. This is visible when we (accidentally) scratch the skin of a black ranchu.
4. Some of the fish shows thick peduncle, following the genetics of the male parent. This is interesting.
Now, let’s examine the side view of the fish. The pictures are in the same order.
1. One interesting observation is that all of them have white belly! The red color tends to be dominant in the upper part of the fish, while the abdoment tend to be white.
2. All have hints of black pigment in the fins.
3. Black pigments in the body tend to be more in the top part of the body, and get lesser below.
4. The tails are large since both parents have large tails.
Actually, I am not sure whether to use them further for my cow ranchu project or not. It seems that I will have a hard time getting rid of the dominant red color here. It is still interesting to see the result if I cross them back to cow, though. Will the cross diminish the red? It is possible. Will the black color stay? It is also possible. And if this happens, then I will have fish with good black quality (though the pattern type is unpredictable) with less red color.
Crossing them back to black might also be interesting. Observation sideview number 1 reminds me of my attempt to produce Kirin ranchu years before. Kirin tend to have dark color on top of the body and light color in the abdoment. Well, this cow x black shows red color on top and white in the abdoment. And the black pigment tend to be more on top. This seems to be half way in the process of making kirin. So, crossing back to black arouses my curiosity.
But I am not sure I will have time to do all these. I have some other crosses with cow which results I will compare with this. If the other crosses produce closer results to cow, I might prioritize them. If that happens, then this cow x black project will be terminated.
Concerning crossing back to black, I must buy another black ranchu which I am somewhat reluctant to do. Black ranchu is out of my projects. I will think twice to enlarge my projects right now. So, I do not think I will do it.
As a conclusion, this cross might not continue. But it helps me understand crossing better.
There might not be a formal standard of Cow Ranchu yet, as far as I know. For my own purpose in judging the quality of Cow Ranchu, I employ several three criteria.
First is the shape of the black pattern. I divide the black pattern in cow (and calico) into three types as illustrated below:
Type 3 is actually a category to include everything else which are not type 1 and 2.
Three fish below illustrate the three types of black pattern:
In my opinion, the most suitable pattern for cow ranchu is type 1. So, I am aiming at that pattern.
The second criteria is the presence of red color in the fish. Of course, for a good cow ranchu, the red color should be none. By this, I do not say that the presence of red is ugly. Not at all. In fact, it can enhance the beauty of the fish. But it is not a cow.
The fish above has a type 1 black pattern. It has lots of red color. Well, it is better to categorize her as three color (until people invent another more interesting name) and not as “perfect” cow ranchu color.
Third criteria is the quality of the color, namely the white and the black color. When the fish has too much black inside (to give the appearance of blue), while it is a desired color in calico, I think it is not desired in cow. The presence of the blue only gives the impression of dirty white color. The same case happens with the pink color as a result of the lack of guanine in the inner skin. So, in my opinion, the more pure the white (some call it milky white) the better.
The black color quality is also important. The desired black color is the one in the outer skin (or in outer part of the skin), not the one inside. And the deeper the black, the better. The border of the black color should be clearly defined.
Those are the criteria of the cow ranchu I have in mind.
Note: In my observation, these black patterns are not constant throughout the life of the fish. The block (or island) pattern can start from a tiny dots, which grows larger and larger. The dots in calico can grow from none (or few) to many. And in some low grade fish, the black pattern can also get dim or even vanish.
There is an interesting update on this project. I might succeed in a year or less.
I think it is time to tell the more complete story of this project. My original source were Celestial Pompom I bought in 2017. They are a variant of Celestial variety that has pompoms in their nostrils. Their other features are thick bodies and short tail. These were my collections:
I know this variant is adorable in its own way. But I do not plan to keep this line. My plan is to create Celestial Butterfly, that is a goldfish with celestial eyes, dorsal fin, and butterfly tail. I saw a specimen of it somewhere in the internet years before and was captivated by it. I do not know any who sells this variant in the whole world. I have never even seen anyone post a picture of this variant anymore nowadays. So, it is quite an interesting challenge to create one.
Before I go on, one important observation about the genetics of the eye is worthy to note. I crossed a celestial eye with ranchu before. The first attempt resulted in 100% normal eyes. I kept them till adulthood and there were no sign that the eyes will change. I did the same crossing a second time, and the result was totally different! There were normal eyes, telescope eyes, and imperfect celestial eyes! What I mean by imperfect celestial eyes are celestial eyes which are not looking upward 100% (there is an angle a bit to the front) or one eye being celestial but another being telescope. I was glad to see these results. But I was puzzled – and still am – about what was going on. I do not have an explanation of the two totally different results from a similar crossing.
The second important observation is about the development stages of the celestial eye. The offspring start from normal eyes (stage 0). Then the eyes will change into telescope eyes first – and this is what I want to highlight (stage 1). Then the telescope eyes will turn – not directly upwards, but – somewhat between frontward and upwards (so, not totally frontward, either) (stage 2). Then the eyes will continue its movement upwards to complete the process of being celestial eyes (stage 3).
This piece of information, especially stage 1, gave me confidence that crossing Celestial Eyes directly with Butterfly (Telescope Eyes) might result directly in few Celestial Eyes. The rest will be telescope eyes and no normal eyes. And my crossing (Celestial Eyes x Butterfly) proved this to be the case. We can say that being a telescope eye in this case is halfway towards being a celestial eye. When the process of stage 1 is halted, then the eye stays as telescope eye.
My confidence let me to cull the fry in stage 0 (normal eyes) based on the tail shape. I did not expect to get decent butterfly tail directly in F1, but I was expecting to get wide spread tail. So, I culled out all the collapsed tail. And this was a grave mistake. Most of the fry I kept turned to be only Telescope Eyes and only one or two fishes being imperfect Celestial. I think a safer strategy is to wait until the fry reach stage 3 and then cull out based on the tail spread. But it happened already.
So, the best thing to do with the mistake was to do inbreeding. I crossed the imperfect Celestial Eyes with his Telescope Eyes sibling. This time, I kept all the tails in stage 0 provided they had no defect. I raised them all, occupying lots of facility space. And now, I have with me all sorts of stages from 1 to 3. And there is one with almost perfect Celestial Eyes feature! And it comes with wide-spread tail, though still cannot be categorized as butterfly tail. Let me show my beautiful baby:
The two picture above is a pic of the same fish. Adorable, right? There is a slight imperfection on the left eye (the angle). I am still hoping that the angle is still in the unfinished process. And I do notice that the size of the eyes are not as big as the original Celestial Pompom Eyes I bought. I do not know whether in the coming descendants the size of the eyes can improve or not, I do hope so. But for now, I am satisfied with this boy (I suspect this one is a male).
The second best result from this batch is this one:
The eyes do not align perfectly upwards. There is a slight angle towards the front. So this one is at the end of its stage 2. I do not know whether it will stuck at this stage or will achieve the final stage. But surely it will be a candidate to be the next parents.
The fishes in this batch show thick peduncles. But lots of them have a bit tilted upwards middle tail. And the combination of such feature with wide spread tail spells disaster. The fish will swim in a rotating movement! I culled out lots of them with that tail trait.
Meanwhile – and this is another story that will merge into my story – my friend mr DBS (Dibyo Sasmita) acquired a different variant of Celestial Eyes. He bought the common Celestial Eyes goldfish which has no pompom, having slim peduncle and long tail. Here were his collections (I get permission from him to use the picture here):
A bit different from me who wants to create Celestial Butterfly, mr. DBS would like to create Celestial Tosakin. So, our final goal will be different but might appear closely related. But there was a problem. The fish did not lay eggs in his place. So, I tried to induce his fish in my facility and successfully mate one of his female with my Celestial Pompom (still without dorsal). Well, success might be an over statement since we only got two fry! This is one of them:
Do notice that the peduncle is thicker than the original Celestial Eyes. The tail still a long one but wider. And it has a small pompom! The Celestial Butterfly I created has lost its pompom feature.
From this specimen, mr. DBS crossed it with his tosakin, and once again managed to get two offspring only. I do not have their pictures, but they have dorsal fins already. Then he lends me the female to cross with my project.
So, to complicate the matters, I had several branches on this project:
My Celestial Pompom x Butterfly (which I have told above)
My semi Celestial Butterfly x mr Dibyo’s semi Celestial Tosakin
My semi Celestial Butterfly x Butterfly (crossback to Butterfly again)
From branch number two, there is one interesting result:
The pompom appears again on this specimen!
The tail is collapsed. The peduncle is thin. Well, I have not observed others in this batch. I do not know whether the others have the same features or not. At a glance, they look widely varied. Some do not have split in the tail, for sure.
I still do not know whether to keep this pompom feature or not. I will decide later. My concern is to have too many variants from a project. My facility cannot afford that.
To wrap up this update, these are the links of the current fishes for you to enjoy:
In terms of the curve shape, the second fish is a bit better. But in terms of the pattern and color, the first fish is my choice since it has darker black color with more pronounced pattern (large spot with clear cut borders). This project is about color and pattern, so I choose the first fish as my alpha male.
The plan I had was to acquire several female fish to cross with my cow. I did manage to buy a female cow ranchu, two female calico ranchu, a female tricolor transparent scale ranchu, and a black ranchu. I take this moment as an opportunity to experiment with these crossing to understand more about the cow ranchu variant. Here are the female troops:
This female cow ranchu is nice in picture. But she has several defects. First, she is a bit stunted at the size of 11 centimeter. Second, she has a swimbladder issue which makes her swim sideways sometimes. Concerning the color, it is a true cow coloration with lots of strong black patterns. This is the reason I still use her despite her weaknesses. And she produces lots of eggs when being fed properly. (She competes for food poorly due to her swimbladder issue) I will report the result when the offspring come of age.
This calico has thick backbone, better curve shape, short tail, and larger headgrowth than my cow ranchu specimen. I think those positive points will be good combination to improve the overall quality of my cow ranchu line. Concerning the color, the black patterns tend to be in dot shapes all over the body. This kind of pattern is different from the cow pattern. Even if this fish lost her orange color, her pattern does not belong to the cow pattern. But yes, the black pigment is dense, which is a good point. I do not know what the offspring will be. I have the newly hatched babies with me now, but must wait for them to grow more before I can report the update.
I bought this girl together with the first calico. They are from the same farm. The backbone is thick and the headgrowth is good. The melanin appears in dotted shapes. The tiny tail shape caught my attention. I guess it will be fun to see what will come out of crossing her with my cow. However, this fish has an issue with its deportment, probably due to its structure. She has problem with swimming and will prefer to stay with head down. And she does not lay eggs so far. I will wait for her to lay eggs for a little more time.
This girl is interesting! It is a superb pattern! She belongs to the transparent scale category, but she is not a calico. It is more suitable to categorize her in the tricolor variant. If she lacks the orange color, she will definitely be a beautiful cow ranchu! And a better one than my cow. You see, my cow still has blue color (dark pigment under the skin), but this fish is almost fully milk white! The origin of this fish is also interesting. The breeder in the village is my friend. He mated my cow ranchu line with a sakura that has lots of metallic scale all over its body. And among the offspring, there is only one specimen like this. I am very grateful he let me have this fish. And I think, the sakura that he used in the crossing is not a key to produce this pattern. He can only produce one fish with this pattern! So, the appearance of this pattern in his breed is purely luck, I think. This fish laid eggs once but all the eggs are infertile, to my disappointment. I will wait for her second batch to confirm whether she is infertile or not. Hopefully not. And if she is fertile, there is still a doubt lingering in me that crossing her with my cow might not produce the desired result. Well, let’s see.
I always have a question if the production of cow ranchu involved black ranchu in the first place. So, I want to cross black ranchu with my cow ranchu to see what will become of them. And yes, I have the offspring ready to report. I just need to find time to take the pictures. Please wait patiently.
So, this is the update of my cow ranchu project. Still struggling. But I hope you find these attempts interesting as I do.
There was a setback on this project as the results were weak. Fortunately hope arises unintentionally.
Following the project I mentioned in the Diary 2021 #25, I end up Yellow Oranda with goosehead type of headgrowth, short body, and weak fins. The best among them is this male:
As you can see, the first ray of the dorsal is short and curved, so as the tail. I think this curvature looks a bit abnormal to me. The fish swim normally in my deep pond, but seems to have maneuver difficulty in a small space (as I observed when placing him in a tank for the purpose of taking these pictures.) But yes, I must admit that the head is beautiful, and the body looks positively thick. I have a hard time deciding whether I should use him as a parent or not. And I think, I will pass.
The rest of the batch is worse. I keep only one as she is the only female in the batch. And she is also the only female Yellow Oranda I have! Let’s take a look at her:
The goosehead type is visible in her, but not as pronounced as the male. Perhaps the lack of white color in the body and head makes her less attractive than the male. The fins differ sharply from the male as they belong to the long-fin category. The dorsal fin and the tail are not well-erected. And there are traces of untidiness on the borders of the fins (first ray and last rays of the dorsal and tail.)
I don’t think I want to use them as parent as I suspect they show weak genetics. Mating them might not be a good move.
Fortunately, there is a hope out of my expectation.
To improve my Yellow Sakura Oranda line (Project #5), I crossed my Yellow Sakura Oranda (Diary 2021 #26) with the parent of my metallic Yellow line (Diary 2021 #25). The cross yielded two variants: Yellow Sakura and Yellow Metallic. Of course my main expectation was in the better quality of Yellow Sakura Oranda. I did not expect anything about the second variant. Unfortunately, the expected Yellow Sakura Oranda was also experiencing a drawback. The fins were untidy, the color was dominantly white, and the heads were almost bald! I think this is a big blow for me. For several months to come, I will have nothing to update on the Yellow Sakura line. Yet, surprisingly, the Yellow metallic fish that came from the same batch has tidy fins and good body shape quality! Mostly bald, though. I kept only one from source, the best one, with sufficiently good headgrowth. He is a male fish that I can be proud of:
The only weakness I see is in the lower lobe of the right tail. The curve is not perfect. But overall, this fish is a joy to me as it provides hope for my next generation of Yellow (metallic) Oranda.
What strategy do I employ?
Yes, as you can guess, I have no choice but to mate him with the weak female above. And the eggs are hatching today!
But that’s not all.
During all this time, I also managed to cross my Yellow metallic line to my Basic Material (Helen offspring). The results are redwhite oranda carrying yellow gene recessively. The fish are large, long, semi goosehead type, and moderately good finage. They have not laid eggs right now. If they do, I think I will also mate them with the handsome yellow male!
Please wait for the result!
For video of the handsome male, please check the youtube below:
There is no shame in struggling. This blog is not a hall of achievement, but a diary of a journey. My purple ranchu has not yielded desirable result. But I think this does not discourage me at all.
In the previous diary 2022 (19) I posted the update of this project. The fishes have grown large and they are late in breeding. Some of them are semi purple ranchu, while others are purple and blue. No brown color here. Yes, I think I lose that lineage. Too bad. But I am sure I can easily revive them again. The offspring from these mixture will produce some brown color.
Semi purple 1 (male):
Semi Purple 2 (male):
Semi Purple 3 (male):
Purple 1 (Suspect female):
Purple 2 (Suspect female):
Purple 3 (Suspect female):
Purple 4 (male):
Blue with golden stain (female):
Well, observing their back curve, they are very rough. Not smooth at all!
But I see some interesting desirable features in them, namely the wide body (measured from top to bottom) and the small tail. Those two alone are good materials to produce beautiful ranchu unique enough compared to what is available in the popular market. Actually, I do not know why these “monstrous beauty” develop such features. I am not aware of any parent fish with such characteristics that I use in breeding. I take it as God-given, special for me. And I will try to work with these features as best as I can.
I love the wide body type because it portrays masculinity well. It reminds me of the Hulk.
The tiny tail is a feature gaining trends in Indonesia right now. I am glad I get this feature out of nowhere.
The weakness of these fishes are the rough back curve, the shape of the tail (mostly curved instead of straight, with bad angle). The headgrowth is in need of improvement also. Those are my homework.
To complicate the matter, these suspect females do not produce eggs so far. The only one that lay eggs is the blue one. Yes, it is the worst quality of all the females here. And it is not even purple. Adding to that, it is also difficult enough to arouse her to lay eggs. She will produce eggs only when I have kept her for 5 days in medication (with salt and methylene blue). She laid eggs twice with that method. No other normal methods will do for her. Strange, right? Her appearance is a bit unique for a blue fish. I was thinking she was a grey fish. But when I look at the head, tail and abdomen color, I realize she is a blue fish.
The only male purple ranchu is in no better quality. But I still use him because he is the only purple. His color might not show purple enough in this picture because he just come out from the quarantine tank (with methylene blue). You know, when the purple fish is dip in a highly concentrated methylene blue water, the fish tend to lose its purple color for a while to make it looks like blue fish. The purple color will reappear after several weeks.
So, I need to start this project with unsatisfactory parents. Will I succeed?
I am enthusiastic, for sure. I think I need two to four years to bring this project to satisfaction. And of course, I will open my eyes on the market to look for better materials to cross.
I only take the video of the long purple one. Enjoy.
Last time I mentioned my Brown Oranda splitted into two lineage: the Dark Choco and the Tea-colored Oranda. I decided to focus on the Dark Choco one, since it is more unique.
This lineage of Brown Oranda diverged from my Blue Oranda line far enough to manifest different body features. My Blue Oranda line has a rounder body and well-erected tail. But it has weakness in its dorsal fin shape. The dorsal looks a bit thin. Some is good in its straight position while others is slightly curved or even a bit fallen to side. This Brown Oranda line is directly opposite to it. The body is a bit longer than the Blue one, and the dorsal looks thick and strong with a sharply straight position. The weakness is in the tail, which is not so well-erected.
I am happy with these differences since they provide me with materials to improve both lineages through cross breeding.
These are three of my Dark Choco:
As you can see, the dorsal fins are pretty uniform. This become their strength.
The dark brown color is also consistent, which is another point to value. There is a special observation I made regarding this color. This dark brown color usually comes with white color in part of its tail, while the tea (or light) brown color has totally uniform color in all its parts. Could this be that the dark brown is actually the exact same pigmen but more condensed than the light one? I do not know about that. But there is another significant different among these two types: in the light brown one, when the brown color fades, the occuring color is always (as far as I observe) orange color. So, it is possible to have brown and orange pattern in a fish coming from the fading light brown color. But the dark brown one has the capacity to introduce white color in its pattern, which the light brown one does not have. So, it is possible to have brown and white pattern (or even brown, red and white) pattern coming from the dark brown lineage. Isn’t it amazing?
In fact, the third fish was brown and white fish before. But then the brown color takes over to make the body totally dark brown and leave the white to the tail. So, this is another unique feature: the ability to remelanize (to reintroduce the dark brown color that had faded)
Back to analyzing the fishes, their body lengths are different. The second fish has the longest body, while the third one has the shortest (roundest) type. The first one is the medium length type. So there is no uniformity in the body length.
The tail is varied, also, with the second fish becomes the weakest.
Well, after analyzing the strength and weakness of this dark brown lineage, I think I am happy with the current result. I am also excited to see the possibility to improve them in the future. My best pair is the first fish (male) and the third one (female). I am also thrilled to see whether I can create the brown, red, and white stable pattern. If so, it will be an interesting alternative to the current tricolor (black, red, and white pattern) in the market. It will be a pattern I have never seen during my whole life time!
Well, the result of my Blue Oranda is satisfactory. But as a breeder, I need to anticipate the genetics being saturated due to inbreeding. So, I develop a cousin-line by crossing the female Blue Oranda parents (Diary 2022 #19) with an orange oranda of my own, which unfortunately I did not manage to take his picture. So, the phenotype of the offspring is orange / red white Oranda, while the genotype carries the blue genetics recessively. I keep only best three of them currently:
Let me analyze them.
Body-wise, the first fish is superb. It has depth and thickness. The length doesn’t seem to be short, more of a medium type, which is what I want. The curve has a good height. It will contribute to the bulky appearance of the fish even when the headgrowth grows higher. The headgrowth is a bit small right now, but I will not worry since I know the parents headgrowth type. It won’t be small, but it won’t be excessive, either. Just right. The tail has a good erect angle with no defects. Perfect! The only visible weakness is the dorsal fin with its curved first ray. This feature also appears in parts of my current Blue Oranda line. Well, it is not really a defect. It is just less desirable than the perfectly straight one. This fish seems to be a female.
What to make of her?
Of course I want to have Oranda with this shape, but with a better dorsal fin. If I use this to cross with my Blue line, then I must choose a male with a good dorsal fin. This will make my Blue Oranda lineage improved in terms of the dorsal fin, but I don’t think I will get 100% better dorsal fins directly from the crossing. It would be better if both parents have good dorsal fins!
Or I can use the first fish as my Basic Material fish. If I mate it with the second fish, which seems to be male, then I can develop a good quality line of orange / orange white Oranda. I can use the line to improve my other Oranda projects (see Diary 2022 #18 for list of my projects).
The body of the second fish is not as strong as the first one, but it might due to the gender difference. This fish has a strong erect dorsal fin. I am glad to have him since I have the needed material to further my projects.
The third fish is probaly a male also. But the body is not as strong as the second fish. And the dorsal is not desirable. So, I think I have no need of him.
Currently I have two lines of Purple Oranda. One comes from the Blue line, and another from the brown line. I will update only the first line at this moment.
As you might have known, I have crossed purple and blue many times such that my blue oranda lineage carries the purple genetics recessively. The blue oranda parents I mentioned in the diary 2022 #19, which I thought were purely blue, turned out to produce a little percentage of purple! So, without any effort, my Project #1 to create blue oranda rewards me with a succesful outcome for Project #3. The quality of the purple oranda is roughly similar to their blue brothers and sisters.
These are five of them:
These are young fish. I am satisfied with their quality right now. I am sure they will turn into beautiful specimens several months to come. Two things I need to improve: the dorsal fin and the pattern. Some fish shows weakness in its dorsal fin, namely the first ray. Concerning the pattern, I am hoping to have more brown color staining the purple to make the ochiba patterns. I consider the ochiba pattern to be more desirable than plain purple.
I will update these fish again when they are mature in shape.
For those interested to see their video, please visit the youtube link below. Thank you.